Sermon by Pastor Jay Bakker. For Sunday, April 25th, 2010. From Pete’s Candy Store in Brooklyn, New York.
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18 Comments
i never thot i would say that ted haggard sounded like the voice of reason..
btw – thanx 4 the msg. i really wish there was a revolution in dallas. the buckle of the bible belt is fairly devoid of churches that give a shit about grace.
haha that doesn’t sound very gracious. But have you tried journey? I just heard the pastor speak; seems like that would be a good place.
Hi Jay. Just finished listening to this message. AWESOME!! I’m a Christian in NYC who’s a part of Trinity Grace Church. Our message on Sunday was similar. Now you having me dreaming of a world filled with more grace and love, transformed by good people who love well and are empathetic. Hope I get to come out to Revolution some time.
A agree that we need to dhow grace to people who have or are living in sin. Homosexuality, just like, adultery or drug use, is a sin. And, just like with someone involved in adultery or drug use, I believe that other Christians would attempt to intervein. So, there was a problem with Bob (the pastor in the video) being critical or to speak the truth of the word of God. Adultry all too often occurs in the world to today, even within the church, but it is now not looked at as awfully as it used to be. It is still looked down upon. I would not want an adulterer, a pastor involved in pornography, or a drug user to be in seat of influence over my children (or of a church). I wouldn’t want a drug user to be my pastor or to be an influence over my children as a Christian artist.
I am a sinner, yet I am saved by faith in God. I do not believe that I should judge Jennifer Knapp for being a Lesbian, but I will not agree that it is not sin. I will not try to interpret the bible in such a way to justify her homosexual lifestyle. I will not manipulate scripture to justify someone’s adultery. That is what she and others are trying to do. That is sin in itself.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts in a respectful way. We’re happy to have people in our community that disagree with us, as long as they do it in a thoughtful manner. Take care.
I agree w/mongo. We all sin and come short, not yet being perfected. God is merciful and loves us all the same. I do not condone any sin, but I don’t condemn anyone. I loved my own grand-daughter enough to try and persuade her not to abort her baby, but told her I would love her and support her in whatever she chose. Tho’ I believe killing an unborn baby is wrong (sin) I could live with, knowing that the baby would be in the arms of Jesus, but I didn’t know if she could live with it… never kissing her baby, or holding it, etc… wondering her entire life about the child.
When it comes to sin, it is not right, but doesn’t send you to hell – rejecting Jesus as your Savior send you to hell. However, it’s been longstanding to have those who are in the forefront of the Christian Faith to be wholesome people who are upholding the values of the Christian walk – not living a lifestyle contrary to God’s moral code for instance… and often asked to step down from high held positions until they have repented and reconciled to live a holy life. We don’t revel in our sin and failings, but in God’s Love and strength to sustain us. It’s in Christ’s righteousness we stand, but continually striving to live a life in Godliness and pleasing to Him. God’s Mercy and Grace will always be there for us, and He is a God of a second chance – no wait unlimited? chances – I know I have messed up more than 2 times – how about you?
I have not listened to the sermon yet, I look forward to listening to it this afternoon.
Scot McKnight wrote an incredible, insightful, important blog post about this very subject. Find it here: http://blog.beliefnet.com/jesuscreed/2010/04/a-question-about-jennifer-knap.html
The gist of it focuses on Jesus’ parable of the wheat and weeds in Matthew 13. The idea of the parable is REGARDLESS of your thoughts on the matter, it’s not, and has never been, our place to judge. Only God’s.
I feel like that is the important thing to remember. Whether you think being gay is a sin or not, God is the judge, and the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts. Neither conviction nor judgment are our job as Christians. Our job is to love. Right?
And I think arguing about it between each other as believers (not saying that is going on in this discussion, but we all know how raging of a topic this is), is also unbiblical and counter-productive.
I say kudos to Jennifer Knapp for being bold and truthful with herself and who she is. And even if you may think she is living in sin, remember Romans 5:20 says that where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.
Loved the sermon. Wonderful that you spoke the truth on so many levels. I especially liked that you stated that too many Christians only know Jesus through the Bible and do not recognize that the Holy Spirit is at work and speaks to believers still today.
FYI, here’s the proper biblical Christian position: http://apprising.org/2010/04/25/gay-christian-singer-jennifer-knapp-out-on-larry-king-live/
In the spirit of embracing differences of opinion, we’re going to leave this link up, but with a caveat or two. Ken Silva has been unfairly critical of Revolution in the past and his attacks on Jay have, on many occasions, crossed the line. We will not be approving any further comments from this man and we cannot vouch for anything that this link leads to. Please proceed with caution.
One thing that never seems to come up in the supposedly settled debate about homosexuality being a sin is mainline protestantism. I don’t want to shrug off the evangelical view that it is a settled issue, but, umm, the lutherans church, episcopal church, united church of christ, MCC, UUA all fully open their churches to LGBT folks. None of these churches seem to view it as a sin.
Now I am a huge proponent of biblical and extra-biblical self study. You absolutely should read the bible for yourself, as well as what other people views on it are. And you should struggle with it. I am struggling with Mark ch 10 right now, both because my first marriage was annulled (am I commiting adultery every time I have sex with my current wife or has jesus forgiven who I am?), and becuase I think that Jesus was right in that we should give up all our possessions to follow him, and the master must serve the servant. I struggle constantly with the fact that if I take this literally, I really do need to give up everything. And I believe I do, I’m just to cowardly to actually give everything away to follow Jesus. (and those were the words of our lord, not just Paul)
But I don’t think the answer is to take the bible literally, at least not in its entirety. I think the answer is to take the bible seriously. And that means to accept that Paul’s epistles were written by Paul, and Peter’s by Peter (or in his name) and they were voted upon for inclusion. It means accepting that if you read the gospels as one big story, there are tons of contradictions, but they were never meant to be read that way. And it means giving up on a simplistic style of systematic theology (a modern invention) to search for the underlying themes and meanings. It means looking at the bible in the context of the time it was written, and the audience.
None of these issues are simple, and homosexuality is the modern churches slavery, as well as its scapegoat (both for the church and its critics). But if we believe that god created everything on the planet, and that the holy spirit resides in each of us, then we must treat everyone as if they are holy spirit. When we attack homosexuals, we attack the holy spirit and the father’s creation (and a child of the lord).
Hey Jay!
I appreciate you touching on such a pertinent topic in the way you did! Very helpful.
I think only if we could come to a proper contextualization of scripture, than can people come to see that the word ‘homosexual’ then didnt mean what we define it as now. and that like you allude to in here is that love should be the law..the higher ethic, and i dare i say, love should lead us beyond any ‘biblical worldview’, which tends to be a phrase some use to justify their understanding of scripture. love is even bigger than the bible. love isn’t bound by scripture, neither was ‘faith, hope, and love’. they didn’t convert to christianity, if anything most of the ‘evangelical’ worldview tends to be the colonization of outside thought and baptized by verses.
either way, thanks for sharing….keep writing bro! let’s touch base, and guitar jam over skype! lol
Hey Jay! Really dug this weeks sermon. Havent been there in person, maybe one day, but I do lsiten almost every week online. This week was brilliant!!
I actually just posted a blog about this.
http://temptationofjoy.blogspot.com/2010/04/what-matters-more-20.html
I thought the sermon was good as well. Title was a little misleading at first, and I thought it would be more about civil disobedience and when certain laws should not be followed.
However I have to say, this was almost as good as God Forsaken which was the best sermon I have ever heard!
Please keep giving those of us with crooked halos hope and most importantly acceptance.
Great blog post. Thanks for sharing.
“Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.”Revelation 2:20-23…the words of Jesus, the Author and Finisher of my faith, grace and everything in between…