God Crushed in Haiti

Jay, I wouldn’t normally post on here. I understand I can come across as bitter and antagonistic (I very well may be). I’m working on that. But I’m the “lol” guy you mention in your sermon here. I just wanted to maybe clear up my point so we better understand each other.

My main issue in our discussion, or maybe the main point I was trying to make, is that we can’t really speak of natural disasters and their relationship with God, unless you claim to have that authority (as some sort of prophet or such). Nobody’s really in a place to say that God caused or didn’t cause an earthquake, unless they’re claiming a pretty heavy inspiration. All we can do is help those in need.

Allow me to take a minute and explain some of my beliefs: I believe that what happened in the Bible, actually did happen, one way or the other. And we mentioned the flood in the time of Noah. In that time (whether you believe in partial flood or full-earth flood, the situation was the same) there were, I’m sure, varying degrees of people just as there were in Haiti. And God repented of having created this race of humans at all because of what they had become, and decided to wipe them out with a flood. These were real people, I believe. Not a metaphor, not a storybook village. These were people, with families, and worries, and concerns, and mouths to feed, etc. Just like in Haiti or anywhere else. So, what I was trying to point out in our short 140 word maximum conversation is that those who are utterly repulsed by Pat Robertson’s statement have, as far as I can tell (there may undoubtedly be more), at least two options to justify the repulsion: 1) to say that yes, that flood story is true, but it was under a different covenant, and God doesn’t act that way anymore, and 2) that flood story’s just metaphorical and just didn’t happen, or that if it did, we’re reading back into history and doing exactly what Pat Robertson did.

In your Twitter remark, you took the first approach (That was God under the Old Covenant and He no longer judges folks via natural disasters.) (As an aside, I LOL’d that Old Covenant type of thinking, and you wrongly accused me of laughing at the situation in Haiti, which was very uncool of you to do.)

My problem with the “Old Covenant” approach is, A: It makes God pretty freaking temporally bipolar, and B: It patronizes, so to speak, people of ancient times. For example, this conversation in Heaven: “Oh, Joe Adamite, huh? You died in the flood? Man, that’s terrible. I wish you’d been born a thousand years later, ’cause then God mellowed out a whole lot and stopped killing people.” Is this clear at all? I hope I’m adequately communicating my issue with this point.

And if people really do have such a revulsion against a God who would cause an earthquake today, then I think they should have an equal revulsion for a God who caused a flood centuries ago. Do we need to have a corporate “Forgiving of God” to clear this up? Jesus even mentions Noah, and says that in the last days it’ll be like people were in the time of Noah. He didn’t say “and while we’re talking about it, let’s take some time to talk about how God isn’t really like that.” Peter mentions Noah, and doesn’t take an opportunity to clear up God’s pancake flipping nature, either. So I have to go with the truth that an unchanging God has corporately judged and punished people before. I’m just not saying that that’s the case in Haiti.

::takes a moment to realize the utter hopelessness of getting his point across here::

My problem with the second point is a lot shorter: I just believe that the Noahic flood is a historical fact, and that it was in fact initiated by God.

Do I believe that this is God’s judgment on Haiti? No. Do I believe that Pat Robertson has even the smallest lick of sense? No. I’m just not getting as repulsed as others at the thought that God would judge nations and people through physical material means like this. I can find no theory (such as the “Old Covenant New Covenant”) that could support otherwise.

In response to Pat, I CANNOT say that “That’s disgusting God would NEVER do that!” ‘Cause, He kinda did, whether He does anymore or not. That’s all I was saying.

It seems like your problem is a God who would do something like the flood in our time. But honestly, could you really follow a God who had EVER done something like what just happened in Haiti? He did, if you believe the Bible, with the flood, and with using armies and other nations to punish each other, as if soldiers and kings were pawns in God’s sovereign plan. If that stopped with the “New Covenant”. . . I mean, that doesn’t NEGATE that HE DID IT in the past. Right?

I’m not asking redundant questions. I’d love to talk with you about it. You’re right, theology can make us jackasses, and I saw that we were both going that way with our conversation, and I think we both chose to end it at a time before it got out of hand.

But I just can’t agree with you on this Old Covenant/New Covenant deal, although I do agree that we look at the scriptures through Christ.

And man, for trying to heal my own bitterness, I sure do wish you didn’t talk about our conversation with the kind of superior tones you used in this sermon.

I mean, you seem to have been really offended at my LOL. I was laughing because I find the Old Covenant theory lacking in foundation. That didn’t bear on how I feel about Haiti. It was a sidenote. A chuckle. And in return I got accused of being pretty much heartless. If you want, can you send me a list of how many times and what I can LOL at during this tragedy? Can I eat cheeseburgers, or maybe just cabbage and bitter tea? Are we doing the sackcloth and ashes thing? I mean, people are dying still: have you sold your ipod or phone or shoes or found a cheaper place to live to donate more? Why are you not down there???? (Before I’m ONCE AGAIN misinterpreted, I’m pointing out that we’re gonna LOL through tragedy. Doesn’t mean we don’t care, it’s just part of who we are. I know a lot of folks who feel bad about Haiti but are still LOLing and going to the movies.)

I’ll share an observation with you. You’re all about restoring hope, love, acceptance, this and that. But you’re not very respectful when it comes to folks who disagree with you. I found that out pretty damn quick. We would have had a much more civil conversation, I feel like, or at least I for one would not be so bitter towards you in my heart, if you would have not attacked my compassion or where I was coming from for a simple “lol.”

If I’ve misinterpreted you, I’m sorry. And I do the same thing to others, so I bear the same lashes. But I just felt incredibly misrepresented by you and felt you were really condescending.

You’ve got my email if you wanna talk further. I’m not gonna be visiting this page anymore. And I’m takin’ ya off my twitter.

Take it or leave it. Cheers.

Sometimes its good to laugh at situations you cant change, you can’t let that shit have that much power over you. I’m not a heartless dude but I’m not going to donate to help Haiti when there are local people who are suffering as well and you can have an immediate effect on those people. I’m friends with James and for the most part I share his sentiment. How long does one have to grieve to be considered compassionate is there a threshold someone must cross before we can laugh. Fuck it dude lets go bowling

Why does this have to get personal….I’m not going to insult you so please give me the same courtesy…and as far as James is concerned he had a legitimate point just as Jay did so why even go down that path both have great points…and to some degree I agree with Jay…God had nothing to do with this plate tectonics did. I would like to think that with the wonderful advances in science people would stop blaming god for natural events

I would love to see this conversation happen over a dinner table. It’s always great to see how people chat when they know the big grizzly character across the table can’t punch them in the mouth and take their cookies!!! ~as